58 to 85 ← 86 to 108 → 109 to 125
86 Quid quod adulandi gens prudentissima laudat
87 sermonem indocti, faciem deformis amici,
88 et longum invalidi collum cervicibus aequat
- cervicibus plural because of meter
89 Herculis Antaeum procul a tellure tenentis,
- Herculis possesses cervicibus, not collum, because Hercules being buff had a thick neck, making it appear short instead of long
90 miratur vocem angustam, qua deterius nec
- qua abl.comparison; refers to vocem angustam
91 ille sonat quo mordetur gallina marito?
- sonat - can be either transitive or intransitive
- quo abl.agent referring to ille
- marito - ablative (dsc/quo rather than dsc/ille) because the adjective hits more on quo (as the adjent of mordetur) than ille
- quo is abl.instrument. agent is reserved for humans.
- qua...marito linguistically clumsy and bad-sounding to imitate the thing that it describes
92 haec eadem licet et nobis laudare, sed illis
- licet is impersonal & takes the person for whom it is allowed in the dative
- haec eadem licet et nobis laudare, sed illis creditur
- The Romans can also fake praise people, but the fake-praised people don't believe Romans. HOWEVER they WILL believe the Greeks. Why? The reason comes up immediately in the next lines—because the Greeks are better at acting. Smooth AF transition, kudos to Juvvy
- sententia
93 creditur. an melior cum Thaida sustinet aut cum
- Thaida - greek accusative; dactyl. /'tʰa.i.da/? not interdental fricative!! and ai is not a dipthong!!
- using a character who was popular at the time as a shorthand for a female character of some sort, possibly a prostitute. Stock characters.
94 uxorem comoedus agit vel Dorida nullo
95 cultam palliolo? mulier nempe ipsa videtur,
- cultus a um
96 non persona, loqui: vacua et plana omnia dicas
- nōn pēr|sōnă, lŏ|quī: văcŭ|(a) ēt plănă | ōmnĭă | dīcas
97 infra ventriculum et tenui distantia rima.
- īnfrā | vēntrĭcŭ|l(um) ēt tĕnŭ|ī dīs|tāntĭă | rīma
- tenui from tenuis
- rima abl.instrument, because although it's the absence of something, it is still a physical formation, not an abstract scene.
98 nec tamen Antiochus nec erit mirabilis illic
99 aut Stratocles aut cum molli Demetrius Haemo:
100 natio comoeda est. rides, maiore cachinno
- nec tamen ... natio comoeda est - These famous actors are not famous in Greece(/back home? are they Greek?) because everyone there is an actor
- natio comoeda est - sententia
101 concutitur; flet, si lacrimas conspexit amici,
102 nec dolet; igniculum brumae si tempore poscas,
- nec = sed non, has a sense of contrast
- igniculum poscas - if the fire at your house has gone out so you go to your neighbour and ask for a fire.
103 accipit endromidem; si dixeris "aestuo," sudat.
- he's a really good actor, whatever happens to you, he can imitate it but more exaggerated. like if you're maaaaybe cold (need a fire), he starts putting on thick clothes. if you say "wow it's warm today" he spontaneously bursts out in sweat.
104 non sumus ergo pares: melior, qui semper et omni
105 nocte dieque potest aliena sumere vultum
- alienā (goes with facie)
106 a facie, iactare manus laudare paratus,
- facies, faciei 5dc
- aliena sumere vultum a facie - LatExt class said this was to put on an expression based on the people around you/by reading the room.
- iactare manus - not throw hands as in fight, throw hands as in throw your hands up in praise
107 si bene ructavit, si rectum minxit amicus,
108 si trulla inverso crepitum dedit aurea fundo.
- fundus -i masc
What of the further fact that the sort most experienced in fawning praises
poetry of the unlearned (patron), (praises) the appearance of an ugly patron,
and compares the long neck of the feeble (patron) to the neck
of Hercules, who holds Antaeus far from the ground,
(the sort) admires a narrow voice, not worse than which
he sounds, he of marriage whom the hen is bitten by?
It is permitted for us to praise these things, but for them
it is believed. Is the comic-actor better when than when the Greek supports the prostitute-stock-character or when
he pursues his wife, or Doris, who is
clothed in no cloak? Certainly it seems that the woman herself
speaks, not an assumed character: you would say everything is empty and flat
below the little belly and standing apart by a slender crack.
However Antiochus will not be a marvel over there, nor will
Stratocles or Demetrius with soft Haemus:
It is an acting nation. You laugh, he is struck by bigger laughter;
he weeps, if he saw the tears of a friend,
but he does not suffer; if you ask for a small fire in winter,
he takes up a thick cloak, if you said "I'm hot," he sweats.
Therefore we are not equal; he is better, he who always and in all
day and night is able to pick up a face from someone else's
expression, ready to throw up their hands and to praise,
if he belched well, if a friend urinates correctly,
if the golden cup with its bottom upside-down makes a noise.
lmao the HSC won't ask about the sexual passages, "racism is fine but sexual imagery is not"
Juvenal's satiric technique
- Varied sentence length - long/short for emphasis
- "quoting" other hypothetical characters
- Rhetorical questions - sarcastic, ridiculing, hyperbolic, indignant
- Arguments are furnished with many examples
- Funny, humourous
- Emphasises the ubiquity of these examples - you are more likely to have noticed one/find at least one relatable
- Argument seem fuller, more reliable, spotted a pattern
- keyword seem fuller (bc proof by listing examples is not a valid argument. Like yeah I'm going to prove that all numbers are even, look, 2, 4, 6, 8 ...)
- Anti-climax (bathos) - makes scenario seem ridiculous; makes point more striking by unexpectedly abrupt ending
- Sententiae - punchy, short summaries of his argument meant to be memorable
- References/comparisons to G/R mythology/history
- mock-epic - using mythological tropes to highlight the deficiencies of the present
- Makes his arguments more relatable
- Using foreign terms against you
- Referencing names of people - real? Stereotypes?
- Listing of things - comic emphasis
persuasive in English - use 20 examples in 1000 words??